Hard Talk with Tim Sebastian
BBC
TS: Last Saturday, when you met your predecessor, president Milosevic, what kind of deal was discussed about the War crimes tribunal?
VK: There was no deal. That was just a meeting. And the story about The Hague, we did not touched in our discussion.
TS: You didn't mention it at all?
VK: It was mentioned, but generally, not concretely. Most of Milosevic's concerns in that discussion was about his position as a former president of Yugoslavia. That is something that is in all countries regulated with special rules.
TS: Did he ask for immunity?
VK: No.
TS: How could you talk about the Tribunal in The Hague, not in a specific way. It's a very specific subject, isn't it?
VK: This was not the time for me to discuss about that. It was just Milosevic's position, position of his party. Some general things, you know.
TS: So he didn't ask for a deal?
VK: No, no... That was not talk about the deal.
TS: And the subject of immunity was not discussed?
VK: No. You know I'm not in the position, actually, to have conversation about any sort of deal with Milosevic. If I would make a deal with Milosevic, in that respect about the Hague Tribunal, I would behave as Milosevic behaved before. But what is strange for me is that many of the Western officials are behaving as if I should do that. They are actually behaving in the way Milosevic was behaving. My position as a president of Federal Republic of Yugoslavia doesn't embrace that problem and that's...
TS: But if it doesn't embrace that problem it doesn't embrace The Hague?
VK: It doesn't embrace The Hague...
TS: But as a member of UN, compliance to the Tribunal in The Hague is mandatory, isn't it?
VK: No, this Federal Republic of Yugoslavia has many offices. The office of the president is one of them. And that office is not in concrete way concerned with the cooperation with the Hague Tribunal. There are ministries of justice, foreign affairs, and so on, and they are going to deal with those matters...
TS: Do you accept the obligation that Yugoslavia has, to comply with the rulings of The Hague Tribunal?
VK: That it should cooperate with the Hague Tribunal... Yes.
TS: You accept that obligation?
VK: Yes. But it's very broad definition, and that can be achieved, that can be done in many ways. I think, that above all we must pay attention to our internal rules about extradition, there are certain problems about that, necessity of ratifying different foreign agreements, including Dayton accords, that has not been done. I must say that Dayton accords was signed by Slobodan Milosevic as a president of Serbia in that moment, and not the president of Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. So there are different and concrete legal problems. But that is something that is politically very important, whatever one thinks about it, and my opinion is not perfect, and I have many objections about the court. But politically, we should try ways of cooperating with The Hague Tribunal. And that is something that has been agreed. And there is going to be an office of the Hague Tribunal... And certain sort of cooperation - we should start with that. But above all we are facing other problems...
TS: Did you talk to Mr. Milosevic about the missing billions that your banking commissions investigate?
VK: No...
TS: Why not?
VK: It was a short conversation...
TS: It must have been very unpleasant meeting for you?
VK: For me it was very unpleasant, but I think it was much more unpleasant to many our and foreign politicians to talk to Milosevic than me. I met him twice in my life, Mr. Holbruke spent hours and days talking to Milosevic, I had just two hours...
TS: But you said he was the poison in the body politics in Yugoslavia, that is why he had to go. So it must been very unpleasant to talk with that particular piece of poison?
VK: I don't know if I used that expression. For me it was a specific problem. Milosevic is president of the Socialist Party of Serbia, that is the largest opposition party in Serbia. One way or the other, people voted for that party. My obligation is to have normal communication with the presidents of all parties. I said at the very beginning that the Socialist party of Serbia has future, but without Milosevic, and not with him. But I cannot influence the voting in the SPS.
TS: You angered a lot of you political allies by talking to him. Zarko Korac said that "Milosevic should be in jail, and not discussing politics with Kostunica".
VK: There was possibility of ... for jailing Milosevic, there was possibility to do that. As a president I must warn you, my obligation is not to put anyone in jail. There were elections in Serbia. Milosevic's party got 15 percent of votes. Milosevic is, I'm sorry, president of that party, and what I can do? I'm not indicting persons, I'm not going to judge anyone, I'm not going to do what...
TS: You've judged him already... Things you said about him in the campaign... You've judged him already...
VK: Yes, politically.
TS: What worries the outside world is: You had this meeting with Milosevic on Saturday. On Monday, there's announcement you're not going to see Carla del Ponte, the chief prosecutor. Your office has said that...
VK: My office has not said that.
TS: There is very strong impression that you won't meet her. Was it a deal with Milosevic, or?
VK: It was not a deal. You're talking all the time of deals with Milosevic. There were many deals with Milosevic. I will tell you, the last American deal with Milosevic was on the 13 October 1998. It was signed by Mr. Holbruke and Mr. Milosevic. And many other deals with Milosevic... I have no deal with Milosevic. I met that person, that man, second in my life for one hour, and that's all. And there is no deal with Milosevic. And what worries International Community it doesn't mean that must worry me as a president of this country. What worries me at this moment is the problem with depleted uranium. What worries me is the situation in the Safety Ground Zone. What worries me actually in this moment are the relations between Serbia and Montenegro. And I'm going to meet Carla del Ponte. I'm not escaping that meeting, I'm not avoiding that meeting. I have many obligations, I will find ways to meet her, maybe when she comes to Belgrade, and of course we will ?? in many views about The Hague Tribunal. I shall meet her. Be happy about that.
TS: This is a firm commitment on your part?
VK: Very firm commitment, and I'm going meet her, one day or another, according to my obligations...
TS: But not when she comes to Belgrade?
VK: You're investigating me. I will see about my obligations, and then I'll decide when it will be. It's quite possible that I'll meet her then. And it would not be at all pleasant conversation. Because there is very interesting investigation that has not been committed by Mrs. Carla del Ponte. That is about NATO crimes committed by the bombing of Yugoslavia.
TS: The war crimes tribunal says that has been investigated.
VK: No, it has not been investigated.
TS: But the Tribunal said they have been investigating...
VK: There were no investigations. Tell me when they were, and what are the results of the investigations? That there were no war crimes? That civilians have not been killed in 1999? What are we talking about?
TS: They are saying that investigators complained NATO violated international agreements and the rules of war? And that they found complains were not justified.
VK: All right, then people have not been killed. It was an act of mercy... Killing people, destroying factories, and now we are having a problem with depleted uranium, which is not the problem of killed Serbs and Albanians, but killed or sick Americans, Britons, and all...
TS: Do you foresee the time when Mr. Milosevic will be handed over to the Tribunal in The Hague?
VK: Most of the politicians in this country give priority to Mr. Milosevic being responsible before his own people. And I will cite you, as a sort of arguments, an English writer, quite well known, That is George Orwell. George Orwell if you know, or don't know, wrote a piece of paper Who are the war criminals in 1943, and he said that the best sentence to the people responsible of different sort of crimes in war is before their own people. And Orwel had some arguments about that. But we will be cooperating with The Hague tribunal.
TS: You want to see a truth and reconciliation commissions here?
VK: Yes because we think that one court, one judicial institution is not enough to deal with all this complex matters, crimes, where crimes have been on all sides, and victims have been on all sides. It's a very complicated matter.
TS: But how happy will other nationalities, Albanians for instance, be to come to Serbia and take part in these truth and reconciliation commissions?
VK: We must know that it's not a court. That is just a commission that will try to collect data and actually to get true picture about what happened here. About the crimes that one nation committed to another and I said there was no innocent in this war in former Yugoslavia. Has objective picture of that. It takes time; it needs another approach, than compared to strictly judicial approach of The Hague tribunal.
TS: On one hand you seem to be opening door to the Tribunal, and on the other you seem to be closing it. Your position seems to be ambiguous here.
VK: I'm just telling that the truth is very complicated matter. At one moment everything seemed quite clear, when we were hearing in 1999 press briefings and conferences in Brussels led by Jamie Shea, everything seemed clear. Later on it appeared that the truth is much more complicated. And in this case in the war in Yugoslavia everything is much more complicated, and we need some mixture of our trials, of some truth and reconciliation commission, of cooperation with The Hague tribunal, as long as it takes...
TS: Do you know where Ratko Mladic is?
VK: No..
TS: You don't know?
VK: I don't.
TS: Why not?
VK: Because I'm not leading an investigation office. I'm not a police officer. I'm a president of this country.
TS: A lot of people, a lot of politicians say that it's quite possible for people to come and go in this country and no body is keeping a track on it?
VK: Well maybe...
TS: For instance, Mr. Milosevic's wife can go to Moscow, without passing through passport control, or any normal control...
VK: Now you expect me, actually to be on passport control?
TS: No, there are lot of politicians in this country that mention the fact that people seem to be able come and go, and nobody is in charge.
VK: Maybe, but there are other problems in this country that is not the only problem. Over our frontier maybe it still go amounts of smuggled cigarettes, weapons, and so on... Particularly that might be a problem in Montenegro and something about that has been written in Italian press. And also many people are not paying attention to that. So going through one frontier without many obstacles is a problem, regardless of the fact if Mirjana Markovic is going without the passport or let us say great amounts of cigarettes, drugs and so on, also going without so to say permission or passport. So we have to try actually to put this country under something that is rule of law. That would be obligatory for all.
TS: Mr Kostunica, you described yourself as a nationalist. When you read the indictments, some of the things which Serbs, and I know that the war crimes have been committed by all sides, when you read some of the acts which are attributed to Serbs, either Bosnian Serbs or Serb paramilitaries in Kosovo. When you look at the pictures of mass graves or mass rapes, torture and murders, etc. What do you feel?
VK: Oh, well, I don't feel comfortable. But I must say also that I don't feel conformable about many media manipulations and lies, of people in the western press. You mentioned one of those. I do not feel comfortable about the stories but real stories and facts about the mass rapes. But I do not feel comfortable about the large amount of lies and manipulations. Do you remember the number of raped women at the beginning of war in Bosnia? Later on it came that the number was smaller... That means that in this case certain media have been lying.
TS: And the bodies in Srebrenica for instance?
VK: Yeah but there are differences in the numbers, you know. And those that exaggerated in numbers have also killed people. So those that have been lying... Those that have been killed people are murderers, but also in media you can find the murderers. The people that have been lying. The people that tell you that more people have been killed then it have been killed, that more women have been raped than it have been raped. These people in media, journalists, are also murderers.
TS: But even assuming there were exaggerations, there were terrible atrocities that were committed. You wouldn't deny that there were terrible atrocities?
VK: Of course. On all sides.
TS: I wonder how that touches you?
VK: I'm really very unhappy, I feel very bad because of that. Because of any people being killed, any woman being raped, beat a Serb, Bosniacs, Croat or any other. Be sure. But I feel very uncomfortable about the lies also.
TS: Well I understand about the lies, but I just wanted to stay...
VK: You don't want talking about the lies. And I'm just trying to explain that you can kill the person by lying. It is also possible. And it's terrible responsibility. Because out of that one provokes hatred between the nations. And many of that hatred have been provoked by the media. In this country, in the neighboring country, in the far away country, including your country.
TS: Did you ever feel ashamed of what Serbs have done?
VK: Yes, I've been ashamed. And I have also been very unhappy because of the crimes committed by the others. And I also think that you feel a bit of shame, or morally unpleasant about the people killed in 1999 by British airplanes also in Yugoslavia.
TS: When you sit down with western leaders, how hard is it to meet them, after NATO has bombed your country?
VK: It is very difficult, but I met Mr. Solana and many other people. But I decided that we must talk, that we must think about the future, that there are things we cannot forget, but first and utmost we must try to make the bridges to bring back confidence. And I'm talking all the time, and very often, more than necessary, about something that has happened. We are actually not turned to the future, but to the past. I would like that the past is left to the people that are formally responsible for it - to the courts, to the truth commissions and so on.
TS: When it comes to Kosovo... Do you accept resolution 1244, which provides substantial autonomy for the province?
VK: There are two international documents that I insist on being respected. One is Dayton accords and another is Resolution 1244.
TS: Do you accept substantial autonomy?
VK: Absolutely. Substantial autonomy and the necessity of the return of refugees and displaced person in Kosovo.
TS: Even their homes are destroyed? You still respect their right to go back?
VK: They shouldn't go if they do not have homes. But I think it's the responsibility of IC for making their homes, and on the other hand it is responsibility of this country and the authorities throughout this country. But it is not the problem about the homes...
TS: ...It's a problem of independence, isn't it? If they should vote in the future for independence how would you feel about that?
VK: Well, I have not seen in the resolution 1244 the word independence. And you said yourself previously "substantial autonomy". For the moment being it is substantial autonomy. Let's talk about that. And then we'll see in the future what the political solution for Kosovo would be.
TS: And the political solution for Montenegro, if Montenegro decides to leave Yugoslav federation? Where does that leave you, as president of the federation that doesn't exist?
VK: I'm not concerned about that. I'm not eager of being a president of Yugoslavia. I'm not eager of being a politician. My career is academic and very late engaged in politics, ten years ago. So, I'm not among those people that were engaged in politics before, in Communist party, in Socialist party and so on. And at one moment, I thought that my obligation was actually to bring changes in this country, to get rid of Milosevic, establish democratic institutions, to get Yugoslavia back to different international organizations, and to do all that in peaceful way, to make some sort of reconciliation between the people living in this country.
TS: You have no ambitions?
VK: If I had ambition, I would demonstrate it much earlier. My ambition is actually about this country being finally kept about the status of this country defined. Because for years we have been living in a state that is not a state. What is Serbia and Montenegro, that have not been recognized in the world, without clear frontiers and so on. I'm interested in the status of my country being defined, because we have been defined as Serbia in the 19th century. And I will respect any will of the people in Serbia and Montenegro about the future of this federation. Of course, I will prefer or insist on Serbia and Montenegro respect federal constitution and both Serbia and Montenegro, in any possible changes in their statuses. But if Mr. Djukanovic decides in completely unconstitutional and contrary to law procedure to secede, there's no one in Serbia that will protest...
TS: ...You won't protest either?
VK: I won't protest. Of course.
TS: President Kostunica, it's been a pleasure having you in the program. Thank you very much indeed.
~KONEC~